Topics: How to Deal with Grief, Dealing with Grief, Grieving

 

This is what Grief feels like…

The moments that break you, the ones that blur together, and the in-betweens no one talks about.

In this episode, Jule Kim, coach and writer, shares her honest experience after the sudden loss of her brother. This is a deeply human conversation about what happens when life stops without warning, and how we keep going through the waves of sorrow and loss that follow.

We talk about the quiet moments no one prepares you for—the way grief sits in the body, how family dynamics shift, and what real support can look like when words just aren’t enough.

No one really tells you how to deal with grief, it’s an experience we all move through uniquely. This can be a tough, triggering conversation for some but it’s one that’s meant to feel like support for those struggling and guidance for those not sure how to be there for those dealing with loss.

 

 

TIMESTAMPS

00:00 What Does Grief Feel Like? Understanding the first waves of loss when dealing with grief  

09:00 How to Deal with Grief When It’s Sudden and Unexpected  

15:50 When People Don’t Know How to Be There for You During Grief  

30:40 How to Deal with Grief Months Later and the Hidden Stages No One Talks About  

54:03 Remembering and Reconnecting After Loss: Healing and Honoring Loved Ones

 

 

In this episode:

• When Words Fail: What to say (and what not to say) when someone you love is grieving.
• The Aftershocks: Why grief doesn’t end when everyone else moves on—and how to stay connected to what still matters.
• Being There: Gentle, grounded ways to show up when you don’t know how to help.

 

You don’t need to be “ready” for this conversation—just open to hearing about what dealing with grief feels like and how we individually heal.

 

 

CONNECT TO JULE KIM

Instagram: @itsjulekim

 

MORE ON THIS HEALING PODCAST EPISODE

 

“It will forever change who you are if you allow yourself to go through it instead of trying to resist it.” – Jule Kim

 

• What grief really feels like and how it moves through the body.
• The shock of sudden loss and finding your footing through the “what ifs.”
• When others pull away and what real support looks like.
• The quiet aftermath when grief returns long after goodbye.
• Remembering with love while learning to live again.

 

What does grief actually feel like?

Not the kind written about in self-help books or neatly packaged into five stages—but the kind that arrives out of nowhere, stops you mid-breath, and makes the world feel like it’s moved on without you.

Most of us don’t know how to deal with grief until it crashes into our lives. Even then, we’re left grasping for words, unsure how to feel or what to do next. That’s what makes this week’s Feel Good Nakd conversation with Jule Kim so special. It’s not about “getting over it.” It’s about being with it.

When Jule lost her brother suddenly, she experienced grief in its rawest form. But instead of turning away from it, she decided to talk about it—to share what it really looks like when loss changes you.

“Grief is so hard, and I just don’t think there’s any part of us that was ever meant to bear it alone.”

This isn’t a story about sadness. It’s about being human. About what happens when we lose someone we love—and how we slowly, quietly, start to live again.

 

Dealing with Grief

It can feel like being hit by something invisible. Jule describes that first moment as a “tidal wave”—one that left her breathless and unsteady. Her body ached, her bones felt heavy, and even walking around the block became a challenge.

Loss doesn’t only break your heart—it takes up space in your body. The fatigue, the nausea, the sense that your skin doesn’t quite fit right—these are the physical truths of sorrow and loss that most people don’t talk about.

When you’re in it, you can’t think your way out. You can only feel your way through.

And yet, those feelings—the anger, the confusion, the numbness—are proof that you’re still here. Proof that love left an imprint big enough to hurt.

“It felt like a giant fist had just smashed me to the ground flat… and that was the moment I understood what people mean when they say their bones turned to water.”

If you’ve been here too, you know. Grief isn’t a feeling—it’s a state of being.

 

The Shock of Sudden Loss

No one prepares you for the speed of grief. One phone call can split your life into before and after.

Jule’s story begins there—with the unexpected. Her brother’s passing came without warning, without a chance to prepare or say goodbye. What followed was a blur of disbelief and the endless loop of what ifs.

You may know that loop well:
What if I had called?
What if they had gone to the doctor?
What if I had said more, done more, been there?

The mind tries to bargain with reality because it’s too painful to accept that something irreversible has happened.

“You can’t accept it at first. Your mind wants to think logically because it’s too painful to feel the emotions.”

But this is also where healing begins—not with answers, but with allowance.
Allowing yourself to cry, to question, to pause. Allowing the waves to come instead of bracing against them.

That’s the part no one tells you about how to deal with grief. The goal isn’t control—it’s compassion.

 

When People Don’t Know How to Show Up

One of the hardest parts of dealing with grief isn’t the loss itself—it’s the loneliness that follows. The quiet texts that never come. The people who vanish because they “don’t know what to say.”

“People are so afraid of saying the wrong thing that they say nothing, and that silence hurts more than any mistake.”

It’s not that they don’t care—it’s that we live in a culture uncomfortable with pain.
But silence, even well-intentioned, can deepen someone’s suffering.

So what do you do when you’re the one grieving? Or when you love someone who is?

Start small. Send a message. Drop off a meal. Say “You don’t need to reply, but I’m thinking of you.”

And if you’re the one hurting, don’t apologize for needing connection. Grief needs to be witnessed—it softens when it’s shared.

Jule said the most comforting messages came not from close friends or family, but from strangers online—people who simply wrote, “You’re not alone.”

Sometimes that’s all it takes.

 

The Quiet Aftermath — When Time Doesn’t Heal Everything

Everyone talks about the first few weeks after loss. Few mention what happens months later, when the world expects you to be “okay.”

But grief doesn’t work on a schedule. It sneaks back when you least expect it—in a song, a scent, an anniversary you forgot was coming.

“The hard part is when all of it is over and life goes on. It feels wrong, like you’re leaving them behind.”

Those moments aren’t setbacks. They’re reminders that love doesn’t vanish with time. It changes form.

Part of learning how to deal with grief is letting go of the idea that you’ll ever “move on.”
You don’t move on—you move with it.

That means giving yourself permission to still cry, to still remember, and to still talk about them without worrying that it’s “too much.”

Time doesn’t heal everything. But honesty, connection, and softness—those do.

 

How to Honor and Remember the People You’ve Lost

Healing after loss isn’t about forgetting. It’s about finding new ways to stay connected—to the love, the laughter, the lessons.

Jule shared something that stopped me:

“Take the photo. Send the voice note. Because one day you’ll wish you had just one more reminder of their voice.”

So often, we avoid photos because we don’t like how we look. We hold back our words because we assume we’ll have time later. But grief changes how you see those moments. Suddenly, every photo becomes sacred. Every message becomes a memory.

Honoring someone doesn’t have to be grand. It can be as simple as keeping their favorite song on your playlist, lighting a candle, or cooking their favorite meal on a random Tuesday.

It’s not about clinging—it’s about connection.

That’s the beauty in Jule’s story. Even in her loss, she found meaning in remembering. And through that remembering, she began to heal.

 

When Grief Becomes a Mirror

There’s something strange that happens in grief—it makes you see your life differently.
The deadlines, the arguments, the little worries that once consumed you—they start to fade.

“You suddenly see all this stuff you thought was important really isn’t—your perspective gets completely recalibrated.”

That’s the hidden gift inside sorrow: clarity.
It reminds you who matters. It reminds you how brief it all is.

If you let it, grief can open your heart wider than it’s ever been.
Because when you’ve lost something or someone you love deeply, you start to love what’s left even more.

And maybe that’s what healing really is.

 

How to Deal With Grief in Your Own Way

There’s no one-size-fits-all approach to grief. What helps one person might not work for another—and that’s okay.

Still, there are a few truths Jule and I kept coming back to during our conversation:

• Grief needs space. Don’t rush yourself into being okay. Healing isn’t linear—it’s cyclical.
• You need people. Support isn’t weakness; it’s medicine.
• It’s okay to find joy again. Laughing, living, or feeling moments of peace doesn’t mean you’ve forgotten. It means you’ve survived.

Remember: the goal isn’t to erase the pain—it’s to carry it differently.

“It will forever change who you are if you allow yourself to go through it instead of trying to resist it.”

Grief reshapes you. But it also deepens you. It opens you to tenderness, empathy, and the quiet knowing that love doesn’t end—it just shifts.

 

A Softer Way Forward

If you’re in the middle of dealing with grief, or walking beside someone who is, let this be your reminder: you’re not doing it wrong.
There’s no script for this part of life. Only moments that ask for patience, for breath, and for grace.

Take the walk. Write the message. Light the candle.
Say “I love you” a little more often. Say it even when it’s awkward.

Because every one of those moments becomes part of the legacy of love—the proof that even in the ache, you’re still here, still choosing to care, still choosing to feel.

 

 

Full Transcript with Jule Kim on Dealing with Grief

 

Chardét Ryel (00:00)
This is going to be one of those really challenging conversations today. And it’s one that every single person really can benefit from hearing. We’re going to be talking about loss, grieving, going through death, some of the things that you don’t expect to come up with family, with friends, even just thehe logistics of it. And it’s a conversation where I’m speaking with an amazing person who has been on

my shows multiple times who is going through loss right now. Jull Kim has been on the show a few times and when she mentioned this conversation to me, I just thought we need to have it. And she’s gonna be speaking a little bit about losing her brother unexpectedly, what his death has been like for her, what grief feels like, some things that have come up in that process.

And the way that she explains it is really beautiful because I think it gives words to those of you who are struggling with loss, be it yesterday or years ago. And it also gives understanding for those of you who might not be going through it, but you know someone who is. I’ll see you inside.

Jule Kim (01:09)
You’ve been generous enough to let me come on your show and say, hey, Sade, let’s talk about grief. Like this is grief. And I know that there will be so many people who maybe they’re like, this is episode to skip this time. And then other people will be like one of my friends who she’s just very honestly was like, am I allowed to ask you this? Like, can I ask you? And I was like, what is it? She goes, what is grief feel like? Because she’s not experienced that herself.

And that was such an interesting question. number one, have you experienced loss?

Chardét Ryel (01:43)
I have, but I think it’s something maybe we discuss a little bit later, because it was extremely traumatic. I know that that’s also been your situation and I was very young. And so it was just like a lifelong thing to deal with, which is also why this kind of conversation, to be honest with you, I wouldn’t normally hold with probably anyone else because it’s a very big discomfort area for me. Very big. Let’s start with, I guess, how…

How would you describe it? How has it felt to go through it? And if you want as much context as you want to give or not.

Jule Kim (02:20)
Yeah, so thank you. Thank you for that. And also thank you for having the conversation with me. With me, I would say that I’ve experienced grief in the most typical ways early on. So I was rewinding and I was thinking, huh, probably most people are going to encounter grief when they have their first breakup because that is a loss. And for many of us, if we’re not the ones instigating the breakup,

That is going to be the grieving part. It’s the struggle to let go of something or someone when you really don’t want to. And so I was thinking about that because when I first got the news, and so what triggered this whole situation and us talking here is because my brother passed away in July. I first got the news or a message from his ex-wife and his current girlfriend right at the end of June. So I think it was June 30th and I

got these messages saying, you know, is this Joel? Because your brother is in the hospital. And I remember thinking, what? And for that first night, I was like, oh, it must be something minor. I don’t know why I thought that. But then it turned out he had a stroke while driving. And the really sad part is that he wasn’t found until three hours later. So like heart attacks and strokes, there are certain medical conditions where time is of the essence. And

He was finally found and taken to the hospital, but it was too late. And his body was alive and he was still somewhat there. And we could tell, you know, we could tell this because the nurses, they told me some fascinating things, which I thought would be helpful for people to know. But yeah. And I remember when the morning after I called the hospital to get news of him. So first it was this entire ordeal of just even trying to find which hospital he was at. Finally got on the phone.

via someone else’s phone who was having a conversation and the doctor was delivering his prognosis. Like he was basically telling us he’s never seen anybody recover from somebody with this level of a brain bleed. And when I heard that news, it felt like this tidal wave, like it honestly felt like a giant fist had just smashed me to the ground flat.

And now I suddenly understood when you read in these books where people will say it felt like my bones turned to water or I just felt like I was going to collapse. That was it. That was the feeling that sinking like ultra weak feeling. And it was so intense. But I remembered feeling it long time ago during some of the worst breakups. Now, were they on the same magnitude? Of course not. But that’s what triggered me to remember.

to think for this conversation as a go. Most of us have experienced grief probably without even realizing.

Chardét Ryel (05:20)
In the form, yeah, the first and it’s always from what you experienced and I want to ask you a little bit more because this is a situation where you can experience kind of a little bit like you said from heartbreak, etc. But the worst is when it’s unexpected in any of those situations. You don’t see the end of the relationship coming. You don’t see the person leaving, especially when they’re not older and it’s just completely they don’t have an underlying condition that you know about.

or you just don’t see it coming, I think is an extra level of grief. And I don’t know if you also felt that a little bit, like it just, it multiplies the experience.

Jule Kim (06:01)
Yeah, you are so right. Because my brother, was quite young in my opinion. He would have turned 54. So on July 24th, that would have been his 54th birthday.

And what made it, I think, even sharper for me is that I had just seen him in April. And this is after not seeing him for something like seven years. So this is probably going to make me sound like a horrible person, but I would imagine that my grief would have probably felt very different if I hadn’t just seen him this year.

There is something that distance does to us within our relationships. And I think that’s just a reality. So, yeah, I’m not saying that the grief would have been less, but I think it would have taken a different feel to it. So the unexpectedness, definitely the feeling of a life cut too short. And then I know that with my family, not only the unexpectedness, but because he was estranged. So there were all these unresolved.

things in the relationship between him and them. So in our family, I was the only one who was on good terms with him. And we didn’t know that he had this underlying condition, this birth condition actually, he was born with it.

And it’s essentially this, not, not to get into gory details, but he was born with a tangle of blood vessels in his brain. So it usually shows up in your brain or your spine. And it’s not something that you can’t survive. Again, time is of the essence. And sometimes they can catch these things on a scan for something else. But if you think about it, because we went through all of the what ifs, I think that was the worst part with the grief and the unexpectedness and

My sister and I, especially when we were at the hospital, we kept asking the doctor, which now looking back, I realized the questions were pointless. You know, it was like, would it have made a difference if he had gotten to the hospital sooner? And the doctor said, absolutely. And I’m like, why on earth did we ask that? That that just made us feel so much worse. And yeah, so. When you deal with a congenital condition like this, you think about it because you come to this awful realization that

This is not something that you would have picked up had you just been better about going to the doctor every year for your physical or your annual checkup. Right? Your brain and your spine are not typically things that the doctor will check for for like the ordinary day to day type of things. And I know what made it so much worse for me is just that feeling of like, there were certain things that we could have done, but they were so far removed from what would be likely to ever happen. And that’s what made it really hard.

Chardét Ryel (08:46)
Yeah, the parallel worlds is something that I remember so long ago, but being a big thing of, if this decision would have been made, then this could have happened. And I almost felt like that was worse. I mean, the shock of it, of course, like you said it so poetically and very true where it feels like you’re being crushed. feels like your bones are just breaking. And then after that, it’s like these rolling pings of

Well, if I had done this, if this could have happened, and it’s just like you’re re-experiencing the loss again and again, because you can’t accept it initially. You can’t. You just have to run through it. Your mind wants to think logically because it’s so painful to feel the emotions. And I don’t know if that’s what you went through too, but it sounds like a little bit.

Jule Kim (09:35)
For sure, you’re so right that it does feel like you’re just kind of reliving it. And for me, the worst period was in the first two weeks. It continued to come up. So there are phases to this, which many of the books out there on grief will tell you. And even the hospital, I think I was surprised at the level of support we received from the hospital and also the lack of support on certain things. But in the first five days, let’s say,

So on day four is when I flew to be with my brother. And so I go through multiple phases of this because then I’m the one who has to call all my family and tell them this has happened. So I call my sister and then I call my parents and then my sister calls our other brother and everybody flies in. On day one and day two, I felt sick, like I felt physically ill, like I had no strength. And I remember the rational, intellectual side of me was saying, okay,

You don’t feel good emotionally. need to change your physical state. So I need to go take a walk. I need something because the sensation was not quite like anything I’d ever experienced before. Not on this level. And I remember telling one of my friends, it felt like I wanted to crawl out of my skin. Like that’s how horrific it felt. I just felt like I was crawling out of my skin. And so I

My husband, you know, he overheard me talking on the phone to the doctor. So he came in and then he was so wonderful. I said, I think I need to get out of here. I need to go take a walk. So we take a walk around the block and I just couldn’t continue. I only took one lap around the block and I had to stop because I honestly felt like I was going to collapse any second. When I look back over this experience.

can only imagine how hard it is for somebody who doesn’t have somebody in their life like my husband, who doesn’t have somebody to lean on because that would be so incredibly hard.

So when I compare this to some of the worst breakups in my life and then watching some of my friends go through some of the worst breakups in their lives, the number one thing I’ve always told people is you need to be around other people. And I think this is even more true. Yeah. So then the next wave of it, I think my mind kind of pushed it out for a second, like the reality.

And what was really interesting is I think I already experienced like a huge crash. I don’t know what that was like for you, but I experienced like such a crash that first two days. But my family, it’s like they weren’t hearing what the doctor had said. Their minds just rejected the reality of what he said and they were clinging on to this hope. And I remember being upset like on many levels. So first I was struggling with how they had treated him and how

their relationships had reached this point. And then I was upset on like, what’s wrong with you? Like, why can’t you like, are you not hearing the doctor? And then you come to the phase of when you’re actually by that person’s bedside and you actually see them lying in the bed. And it’s it’s so many things going on because

think in the movies you’d see hospital rooms depicted as these very quiet still places. They’re so not like the hospitals. There’s so much hustle going on constantly. So nurses coming in and out, doctors coming in and out, the nurses station right outside the rooms. You know, they’re normal people. So they’re joking, they’re having fun, but you don’t want to see that. It just seems so out of place. So then you resent them for that.

So then there’s the next several days and you’re watching people come in and say goodbye and that’s also very hard to watch. And yeah, so you’re you’re totally right. It comes in multiple waves, I think. So just constantly like these waves crashing onto you. And then the hard part, I think, is even when all of it is over and the person has passed on, you come back to what feels like ordinary life and you don’t want life to go on. It just feels wrong.

Because I think for me, and I’ve heard other people say this, we have a fear, I think, of moving on because that almost feels like you’re then leaving them behind. And you don’t want that. And it’s just a very weird thing to have gone through this incredible and hard experience and to know that you’ve been forever changed, but then to return to your everyday life. And it’s just so weird. then parts of you will forget.

It’s almost like you can sort of put it away, maybe compartmentalize it, but then it will just pop back up in the weirdest times. So that’s also what I think makes this really hard.

Chardét Ryel (14:22)
It’s for you when you were describing it, it’s almost like it’s, well, it’s added because you have the time where you know someone’s not going to survive and you can physically be there with them and their breathing and you see everyone say goodbye, which is very different from when someone passes suddenly and they’re gone and you just go to the funeral, right? It doesn’t, I’m not saying it’s easier, harder, but it’s just different. And so I can see like, it’s more drawn out for you. mean, you have

so much time where you’re experiencing this and then you’re dropped into normal life. And I don’t know if you found this, but one of the things I remember, I was so young, I was 10 years old, but I really remember that people didn’t know how to handle me in my grief. They didn’t know what to say, they felt awkward, they’d get offended if I didn’t answer back immediately. And this was before…

text messaging, cetera, but I remember that was a really difficult part was other people didn’t know how to be around me. And I don’t know if you experienced that as well.

Jule Kim (15:27)
Gosh, yeah. So I’m gonna share something. And this is no shade to my family because looking back, I realize there are certain parts to our family. So number one, I’m autistic. I’m very likely all DHD. I have been diagnosed with ADHD, but I’m pretty sure I’m autistic as well. And when I look at my family, my brother who passed his name was John. Very sure John was autistic.

pretty sure my dad is autistic and also my other brother. Like I’m very certain all four of us. So just keep that in mind with what I’m about to tell you. So I think it’s day two or day three of me being at the hospital and my other brother, who is the oldest of us. So he goes, you know, your sister and I were talking and we felt like there was no need for you to suffer here. And maybe like you should go back home.

And I remember being thunderstruck. So kind of like what you were saying with people not knowing how to handle you. And I was so offended. There were so many levels to this because I thought, okay, do you honestly think that somehow this would be easier for me if I were back home? Are you kidding me right now? If anything, it would be worse because then I wouldn’t know what’s going on. I would have to rely on the four of you to tell me and all four of you are terrible communicators.

There’s no freaking way and but then there was this thing where I think with grief certain boundaries are crossed right like my family and their good intentions were trying to shield me and I had a Part of me inside where I was thinking how dare they like this is not theirs to manage for me like how dare they and then there were other people like my mom who I honestly questioned if she was a narcissist

because she was carrying on as if this was almost like any other day and I didn’t understand it. It was such a weird lack of awareness or maybe that was just her coping. have no idea. So then that’s the immediate family. You move out to the outer rings of your closest friends and you look at them and then there are definitely people who don’t know how to sort of handle you or just be there with you. So my family definitely were the type who when

my parents’ neighbors. The husband passed away last year. My sister literally went through the thing that you just described where she had sent them flowers and then the wife never responded to her, never said thank you. And so my whole family was up in arms over this. And I was like, what on earth makes you think you’re entitled to a response, especially now in her worst time of her life? Her partner of 60 years has just left.

this world do you not understand? And yeah, and then you have other people who say, I felt like you just needed space and I didn’t want to make it worse. And it’s hard because I posted about this on TikTok actually. Somebody wrote a comment and she said, people don’t like they’re so afraid to make the wrong move because they know they’ll get criticized for it. So if one of your friends or family like has anybody ever said that to you?

Chardét Ryel (18:46)
Yeah, I mean, I have a family member who’s chronically like that. I think for friends, it was more common. And honestly, I’ve been on the other side of this too, where I just didn’t know how to deal with it. Because I think also, when you deal with sudden loss, really young, you get a little trauma from it. And so you get very easily triggered by other people’s death. And I’ve seen that throughout my

years. And so I know I’ve been on the side of where I haven’t handled it particularly compassionately or well for people. And I think what really made a difference was I think I mentioned to you, I spoke to this grief coach and I always remember thinking like, why would someone work with a grief coach? But then she explained this stuff to me and I just thought small things like if you send a message, say, hey, just checking in with you, you don’t need to respond.

I can do these three things for you if you need one of them, just tell me. Or not to say, I’m sorry for your loss. So I stopped saying that. I don’t say that anymore. And to just instead validate whatever feelings they’re having. But these are things that I think most people, myself included, we just don’t know to do because we haven’t gone through it or we have trauma around it or it’s just, you know, it’s so difficult.

but I’ve definitely been on both sides of this and I’m sure you have too as well, right? It’s hard not to be.

Jule Kim (20:13)
It is and that’s a really good point too. So for the commenter who said people are afraid to reach out because they do it wrong, they’re going to get criticized. There’s a part of me that thinks and knows that that would be true for a lot of people out there. There are people, but I think what we don’t understand is that if they do criticize you, comes from a place of hurt and a place of lashing out probably. So at the end of the day, if you look at grief and all of these really

heart emotions like even anger and betrayal and sadness. Grief is one of the hardest ones because on the spectrum of energy, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen David Hawkins map of consciousness. Have you seen it?

Chardét Ryel (20:54)
describe for everyone listening because I think it’s very helpful.

Jule Kim (20:58)
So if you Google David Hawkins map of consciousness, you will see this article and it will literally show you a spectrum, sort of like a, what do you call it? Like a temperature spectrum. And it’s mapping out the energy frequencies of certain common emotions. So grief, sadness, guilt, despair are all sitting at the bottom end. And what’s interesting is being a coach for the last five years,

One of the assessments that we give people is very closely tied to that. you know, there’s a part of me that wonders if they base it off of that. But we commonly will see that people who are in that lowest sort of tier of the emotions will often resort to anger because anger feels better than all of those other ones. And it is one of the easiest ways to climb out of that tier. Now, is that constructive? No. So definitely not.

Chardét Ryel (21:56)
Anger feels like action. mean, we see this even beyond grief or anything. When people respond with anger, it feels like I’m taking action. I’m doing something. I’m not just sitting back versus some of the other emotions can feel passive or like they’re not within your control. Anger really isn’t in your control, but it can feel like it is. And I know that that’s part of it. So I can understand how to this person saying

people are afraid to do something because they don’t want to get backlash. And if they’re responding to someone who is angry and that’s how they’re responding to them, I can definitely see how that can happen. But you also have to think, well, it doesn’t matter because if you care about the person, then their response is irrelevant. However, they, whatever they do to what you do, it doesn’t matter because the whole point is just for you to show up and be there.

Jule Kim (22:51)
That is it right there. That is it. So when we talk about holding space for each other or just being there, like that is that one thing. So there was a part of me where not only am I going through the experience because at my age and also with the tools and the training I’ve received, which have been very helpful, I’m experiencing the grief, but also watching me live it and also watching other people.

interact with myself and me interact with them. And there’s always been a part of me that has that had this level of incredulity, which may not be fair to the other people because I know we’re all coming from different places, different spaces, different levels of capacity. But at the end of the day, I kept thinking, are you seriously thinking about yourself right now instead of thinking about me? Because that’s what it boils down to is like you are so afraid of something that might happen in the future that you’re not going to take.

The bare minimum step right now of at least sending the text, of at least sending some sort of message, a signal to show you give a damn about me. That was the hard part. What’s also been super interesting is watching people on the internet, people who are strangers, people who I consider to be on the outermost peripheral edges of people I know, immediately reached out and said how sorry they were and how they were thinking of me. Like even the bare minimum of saying you’re in my thoughts, you’re in my prayers.

That helped. It helped me feel not alone. And so that’s why, like going back to what I said earlier, you really need to be around other people during a time like this. You really do. Because the grief is so hard. I just don’t think there’s any part of us that was ever meant to bear this alone. Like, I just don’t think that’s possible. And I know for some of us, that’s not a choice. But that’s why we have grief support groups. That’s why there are other areas that maybe you might want to

put yourself into. So there are strangers on the internet who are reaching out with these beautiful messages. I even had one person who I didn’t really know that well. She sent me flowers. And then you have people who are closest to you who back away. You suddenly realize in your closest relationships, you expect these people to be there for you. You want to ask yourself, like, how do I deal with this? And what does that say about us? Or does it even have to say anything about

Chardét Ryel (25:15)
Where do you feel like you are with that at the moment? Because I know it’s been not long, but also it’s been a few weeks for you to be able to think about it. Where do you fall with that? Where someone doesn’t respond in a way that signals they’re there for you, even though, you know, they might want to be, but they actively haven’t made that signal to do it. Because you’re right that this definitely changes some relationships forever.

when this happens because how can you go back knowing that you really needed someone and they didn’t, you know, they weren’t there.

Jule Kim (25:51)
I think this time around, it’s been a lot easier for me because I try to take people at face value. As in, not just what they’re telling me, but if you truly have the measure of a person, then you would not be surprised at how they react. There were some people who sent me messages saying, my gosh, I wish I could be there for you, but I really can’t. And I was actually surprised because my immediate response was, I would never expect that of you because we don’t have that relationship.

We do not have that level of relationship where I would ever expect that of you. Different people will experience grief in different ways. And I find that for many of us, let’s say the Asian culture and probably a lot of cultures around the world, they don’t do grief very well because they in general don’t do emotions very well. And so maybe in the immediate like three month, six month aftermath, they may not actually display a lot and they’ll tell themselves they’re fine. But then it will pop up.

unexpectedly later on. And then that’s when it’s really hard because it feels so disconnected, but it’s not. You just didn’t give it space to come out.

Chardét Ryel (26:58)
It’s very like the space thing is something that I think would be interesting to speak more on because a lot of people, depending on how much you suppress your emotions or you feel it, or if you’ve got a whole lot of other things going on and you can’t process what’s happened, because there are people who are in that situation, whether for work, parenting, et cetera. And then it comes months later. And I think that can be the hardest, like you’re saying, because one, it’s surprising. Two, people are not as sympathetic.

because it hasn’t just happened. And there is this culture of, you’ve had enough time, haven’t you? And that time is the thing that heals it, which is not exactly correct, right? You have to actively heal it. And then I just, don’t know. think that part I think is really challenging is it’s actually months later sometimes when you really, really feel it because there’s less people, the time has gone by more.

And you feel like this expectation, well, I should be able to manage it by now. I don’t know if this is, you’re still pretty early in the journey. So maybe it hasn’t come up yet, but you might see.

Jule Kim (28:05)
I’m sure I still will have moments where it just flares up out of nowhere. I’m guessing that it’s not like I’m a grief expert or I’m somehow doing grief better than other people. But I am thinking that I have been processing a lot more actively than most people would in this situation. Especially in the first two weeks, like the first week of me being with my brother in the hospital. It was a weird time, to be honest.

Because not only was my brother estranged from the rest of the family, but I was also estranged from my other two siblings. So it was just all kinds of awkward dynamics. And then you had my parents. My dad didn’t really speak much. My mom talking enough for the four of them, like incessantly speaking, all of which boiled down to me feeling like I was not safe to feel grief while I was at the hospital.

So I know, especially for people with families, mothers, like parents, you tend to be more in that survival function mode. Like I got to get things done. I got to like make sure everybody’s fed. I got to make sure blah, blah, like schedule, schedule. And there are decisions to be made, which also make it hard. So many decisions. And so in my brother’s case, the hospital staff came and asked him to be, or asked us if he could be an organ donor. So then that was a whole other conversation. So it’s just…

decision after decision to make and most of us are so ill prepared for this. So if you’re listening to us talk, I would highly recommend you take the time right now to lay out some of these decisions on paper ahead of time so that it alleviates some of that stress on the people around you when it becomes your time.

Chardét Ryel (29:53)
Talking about it, writing it down, discussing with someone what really like what happens when I go is huge, especially if you’re in a relationship, partnership, financial sharing things. know like nobody wants to think about this stuff with death, but it is the reality is the person left has to deal with it. And I know I’ve really close friend who she was the only child, her one parent passed, no siblings on his side, her father’s side.

It was hard. She’s an amazing person for everything she had to do to go through with it. And I think the only thing she said that helped was that they had had a conversation around some of this stuff before, but it was, I want to say it was actually a couple of years of having to still manage certain things, especially because she was the only one.

Jule Kim (30:43)
Yeah, that’s a real thing. And in my brother’s case, we’d never had the conversation. I’m sorry about your friend because it is hard to be the only child. That is incredibly hard. But I am glad that she did have at least some of that talk that is so helpful because I’m not saying this just from a logistics perspective. When you are in the moment of watching your person pass on,

or even right after they’ve passed. If you’re like most people, if you’re like me, you will probably feel this overwhelming sense of wanting to do right by the person. Is this what that person would have wanted? And to not know is one of the worst places to be in, and that was the space we were in. With my family and with Asian families in particular, I think most families, you experience some level of hierarchy.

Most people tend to expect the oldest siblings to be in charge, to be in control, to be the most responsible. But we had a weird situation going on with my family because my parents reverted to expecting that in our roles of us three remaining children. And so I am the youngest by a lot versus the other two siblings. We’re talking 11 and 13 year difference or even 14 year difference. So my parents immediately went to my older two siblings.

and said, you’re taking care of his affairs and here’s some cash to help settle some of the affairs, stuff like the funeral and et cetera. It took me maybe a day to realize I didn’t feel right about that because they were estranged. So in my mind, I was thinking, why on earth would my parents do that? Because they didn’t even know him. So the last time my family had all been together was at my wedding, which was 10 years ago.

So if you think about that, the last time any of them had seen my brother was 10 years ago. I had seen him a couple of times since we went on vacation together and then he came up to see me and it’ll be one of the biggest regrets of my life of not seeing him more often because he and I felt like we were the only ones who understood each other.

Sorry, I’m struggling.

Chardét Ryel (33:06)
Take a moment, this is fine. Like, when it’s someone that you’re so close to, but then also you have the time where you weren’t able to really fully… There’s always this question of, well, I could have spent more time with them, but it’s even more when you could have, right? You guys could have, and I don’t know the situation, the circumstances, and it’s not something for us to go into at all. But there’s definitely grief around that too.

Jule Kim (33:31)
Yeah, the what ifs of all the things, not just surrounding, but you’re right, the grief around all the things that you didn’t do, all the things you didn’t say, the time you didn’t spend together. So that was probably one of the worst parts in that week at the hospital is feeling like I had been the worst sister in the world.

Chardét Ryel (33:54)
I remember I’ve lost two people. So the second person, I was a bit older and I remember I was traveling, studying abroad, so excited to be living this life. Finally away from the middle of nowhere, US, so excited. And during that time, this person died. And I remember the day that she died, I thought I was in a gym. remember I was in the gym and I was like, I’m gonna make a reminder to write a letter to her.

because it was an older person, I’m gonna write a letter to her. And I went up to my computer, I got ready to write the letter and I’m on Facebook and there’s a Facebook post from my sister talking about this person who’s died and no one has told me because I didn’t have phone number at that time, I was out of the country and I just remember thinking like, how the, you know, how could this happen? I didn’t even get to write the one letter.

the one letter, all she ever did was ask me to write letters and I finally go down to sit and do it. And then this has happened. And it’s just like, there’s so many situations like that where even if you’re with a person all the time, there’s always gonna be something, always.

Jule Kim (35:10)
Gosh, that must have been so hard.

Chardét Ryel (35:13)
It’s not the same at all because I know it’s not right to say this, but I think people should hear it because especially if you have someone who you lose or someone you know loses someone who is really like close in their family, it does feel different. It really does. And between the two deaths of someone who I was pretty close to, this person who I wrote the letter to, but someone who was like my world, completely different experience. And I think when it’s someone who

who either you’re estranged or you’re really close to, it’s a sibling, it’s a parent, you really have to be there for that person even more because it’s a different level of grief.

Jule Kim (35:51)
It

is. It definitely is. So there was a part of me, which I don’t know if you went through this with your experiences, where we tend to compare, which I know is a weird thing, but we compare. So for instance, I was probably intellectualizing my feelings, but you need that. You have these moments where if the grief is so hard for you to deal with, is so big, your mind at a certain point seeks that escape. It’s okay to give it that escape.

So that was the advice that I received from the hospital social workers, which I was like, wow, I didn’t even know that was a thing, but now it totally makes sense. You have social workers assigned to cases like this and they check in with you every day. They try to check in with all of the family members just to see how everyone’s holding up. And so in the case of my brother, he had children. He had five children and the youngest of which being two years old.

So the social workers were so great, they brought over these books on grief to give to the nine and 11 year old because they are right in that age where I could tell I was watching them. could tell they may have been physically present in the room, but I don’t know that they fully understand what’s happening. So I asked the social worker number one, are they aware that their father is no longer going to be with us in a few days because the way that they’re

behaving, I don’t know that they grasp that. And I’m not saying that there is a proper way to act in these situations, but it felt like the light bulb was not on there. And also because I think their mother was speaking as if there was a chance for recovery. So that was one of the hardest parts is just watching all of the family speaking as if he was going to wake up any day now. Gosh, it’s like my memory has holes. Sorry.

Chardét Ryel (37:46)
There’s a lot of stuff that I don’t remember as time has gone with not about the person, but the whole experience of the grieving, which is maybe a blessing in some ways. But definitely the allowing yourself to escape and almost as a child, I think you allow yourself to do that.

because you don’t even realize that it could be considered taboo or you should be present at all moments in the grief and somber. You’re almost in some ways more resilient with it. And I definitely saw that. I remember joking the day of the funeral with my friends who came. That’s hard to imagine doing the second time I had to face death or any of the time since. I can’t imagine doing that, but at the same time.

It was necessary because the darker moments were so dark that I just don’t think you get through them if you don’t have the escape a little bit.

Jule Kim (38:44)
Yeah,

I think that’s definitely true. So even even in our experience together as a family to witness his passing, our escapes were our meals together and hanging out together to keep the hospital room so freaking cold. So it is almost a little bit like you enter this other world and then when you leave it is like

going to another world, it’s physically different, which is really strange. you know, going back to the very beginning of the conversation with, told you, my friend asked me, what does it feel like? And the number one thing that I remember being shocked by and continue to still feel a little shocked by is how physical it is. So we forget that feelings are physical, emotions are physical. So every time one of those waves come over me, it’s a little bit of a revisiting of that.

being crushed feeling, but each time it’s not as bad. Our mind will seek the escape, it will seek the reprieve. There’s nothing wrong with that. Especially as children, I think you’re right. Children are more resilient. They probably naturally know what to do to make themselves feel better. I don’t know how old you were with the first time around. Do you mind sharing that?

Chardét Ryel (40:02)
Yeah, so I was 10. That’s why when you were saying with your brother’s children, they definitely know what’s going on and they definitely feel it. It’s just very hard because you feel it differently. I remember feeling it different than my parents and then the adults. It just was a very different experience. And I think the biggest thing was I wasn’t given the emotional tools to process it. And so that was

probably why it carried forward for so long. So it’s amazing, for example, that you had even the books to be able to talk through that. Because when you’re the child, you’re just, you you had said something that really stuck with me, which is I wanted to be there because otherwise I’d have to rely on them telling me what’s happening. And that’s what it is when you’re the child. You don’t get to be there. You don’t get to make the decisions. You’re just relayed the information and you’re waiting. And that is a really challenging place to be.

because you don’t have any sort of agency and it feels like the world is happening to you. Yeah, I mean, don’t know if people are listening if they have kids that are experiencing this in any way, but I think there’s something to bring them in somehow.

Jule Kim (41:13)
Yeah, I think that’s a really good point because I remember watching my niece and nephew during this and I didn’t like how my family were treating them. Almost like they were just accessories being carted around. So that was why I asked the social worker to talk to them in particular, like to them and to make sure that they were aware and that they had the tools. So the other part that I haven’t really talked about what made this super challenging.

is we had a language barrier. So my brother lived part of the time in Mexico. So his partners were Mexican. And for example, his ex-wife spoke a smidgen of English, but not very much. Thankfully, his children spoke some English, quite a bit of English. But in terms of when you want to talk about things, like important things, especially things that are intangible,

It’s always better to speak to them in their language to make sure. Yeah. So the experience of grief as a child, I can’t even imagine, but this is going to sound horrible, but I’m going to say it anyway. There was a part of me that almost envied them this because whenever I watch some of the people around me and you can see that maybe they faint, maybe they go through other experiences where it’s clearly their body taking over and it’s like, okay, you’ve had enough and it just literally shuts down.

And I so wish I had that. The part that really sucked through all of this is remaining completely lucid and completely aware and in control of what I was feeling. And maybe people would think that’s a good thing, I promise you. It’s just another path and it is not any better. So I know people will constantly send me messages, they admire my composure, my poise. It’s not always a blessing, it really isn’t.

Chardét Ryel (43:10)
It must be hard too because people don’t always realize how much you need them when you have composure.

Jule Kim (43:17)
That’s probably true, and I would imagine they would say the same about you. You seem so grounded.

Chardét Ryel (43:23)
Yeah, they didn’t say the same when I was the kid.

Jule Kim (43:26)
You

Chardét Ryel (43:30)
They would not use those adjectives to describe me as that 10 year old child, that’s for sure. But I do think, and this is probably really horrible to say, but I do think about this sometimes that as much as the trauma has lived with me, I am in some ways grateful that it happened so young because I think having that kind of your world turned upside down when you’re young like that, it just, not that you’re prepared for when it happens again, but you just, it-

It cuts, but it’s not the same. so I think like even small things, like after that happened, I remember with my mom, she wasn’t a particularly emotional person. And so she never really hugged us when we were kids. Like she really loved us, but she just didn’t know how to show affection because her mom didn’t and her grandmother didn’t and it’s like generational. And after this death, I remember actively going to her and like every conversation I would end and say, love you to this day.

I still say it every time because I just don’t know when the last conversation will be. And that’s something that only came because I experienced this so young and like even hugging her every time because you just don’t know. And so in some ways it’s been helpful for that. And other ways it gives you paranoia because you think about it a lot, right? Like what if this person passes, et cetera? But I think

Really feeling all the emotions like you’re saying really being lucid not being able to just check out of it. Yeah

Jule Kim (45:00)
It’s…it’s hard. And of course, the paranoia, like the sensitivity, the fear of, this was already so hard and I don’t want to go through it again, but you rationally know you will go through it again because it’s inevitable. It’s a strange place to be in. I think it’s a good catalyst for reflection and it becomes an inflection point for so many people. So I remember it felt like my world was turned upside down.

But unlike a child where your whole world is, I think, a lot smaller than it is as an adult. And which is why I was saying, I think for a child, I almost envy them because you don’t have as many things to pull you away from the experience, which may not feel like a blessing. But me today, the turning upside down feeling was you suddenly see all this stuff that you thought was important really isn’t. Your level of perspective is recalibrated.

And the question is, will you retain that recalibration? Because with what I see with my family, it’s almost like they’ve reverted back to before. And I feel myself doing the same and I don’t want that. I don’t know, man. There’s no clear answer here. Because at the end of the day, think grief, more so than any other experience out there, is one of those things, if you’ve ever heard of

the phrase where it says you can’t push away emotions like you have to let emotions come through you. There was never an instance where it was more true than this one because it will forever change who you are if you allow yourself to go through the experience and to hold it without trying to alter it without trying to resist it. And yet you will do those things. You will try to resist because it feels so

And all I can say just from my own experience is try to hang on to the good as well. And try to remember. So there was a moment in the hospital where I had asked my husband, what’s your favorite memory of my brother? And he tells me it’s the first time he ever met my brother. I was in the midst of breaking up with my ex and my husband was my friend. We hadn’t started dating yet. And I had actually asked my brother to come for moral support to help me.

go through the breakup with my ex. And he came because that was the kind of person he was.

And I wanted my brother to meet my friend at work. And my husband had just come back from India, literally that day had just flown back and had dinner with us. And when I asked him now, he said he didn’t know that I was going to bring my brother. So I just sprayed my brother on him. But apparently we were at dinner and I don’t even remember this that well, the three of us and

My brother did this thing. do remember this part. My brother asked him, what are your intentions towards my sister? First time he’s meeting this guy and we’re not even dating. And of course my husband is like, ⁓ what? And so I asked my husband, was like, well, at least I was sitting next to you. And he was like, no, you were not. What’s the two of you on the other side? And I was like, great. So it was like facing a firing squad. I’m so sorry. So it’s because of.

That me asking my husband that my sister overheard that question. So she actually took that question home that night and she said she spent all night thinking about the same question and then also asked our other brother the same question. What’s your favorite memory? you want to go through the grief and I want to think about it as it’s almost the same experience of you want to see the person for who they really were and to me that is how you honor them. So you want to see the totality of their experience and not

shrink them down to just this experience, which I understand in the moment it can feel so magnified because it is. But try to remember the good as well. Try to remember why you love this person and the best parts about them.

Because at the end of the day, what else do you have left? You just like you said with your parents or your mom, you never know when it’s going to be the last. And I think we tend to do that with older people because the inevitability of the transition from this world to the next is a lot more visible with older people, not so much with younger people, even though it’s actually the same. It could happen any day. So to tell your people that you love them and that you care about them.

Because you never want someone to leave this world thinking that you didn’t care.

Chardét Ryel (49:45)
And to tell them the things that you want to say as well, I would add there because yeah, it’s hard sometimes. There’s lots of, I don’t just do it with my mom anymore. I do it with everyone that’s close to me. I will say things that need to be said and the things that I think even just friends about you’re such an amazing person, verbalize it, say it, because they might actually not realize without you saying it. But I love that what you said about remember,

The whole experience, it’s not just the death. That’s one of the most powerful things you can do is remember all of the experiences. And it took me a while with the person I was really close with to do that. But now I would say the full memories I have are just about a little more than the death. And that’s just because of how the death happened. I think that it makes it, it makes it feel still, not that she’s necessarily here, but just that, you know,

honoring that person’s life. So I think that that’s a really beautiful way to have people remember. Is there anything else you’re thinking that you would want to say to someone who’s either experiencing this or maybe I think the majority of people know someone who’s experiencing it.

Jule Kim (50:58)
actually think it’s what you just said here. I’m going to expand. not only how you feel about them and how much you care about them, but also anything that’s lingering or unresolved, something that you’re carrying negative feelings about because what you don’t want is to wait until they are on their deathbed and to unleash them, unleash this on them. I don’t actually think that’s fair. And so this is the part that I alluded to earlier on with what the nurses told us.

He was in a coma, but I’m pretty sure he could hear he was at least somewhat aware of what was going on. And so there’s always this question of how much does a person in a coma, how aware are they? And this is what I did not enjoy seeing because in the movies or the TV shows you see it depicted where people will encourage you to go to the person who’s dying and tell them everything you feel about them and get it off your chest.

Whereas I had this realization, you ⁓ have a captive audience at that point and ask yourself if it were you in that position, is this how you would want to spend your final hours listening to other people unleash all of their trauma or their grievances upon you? So that’s where I think it’s really important for you to perhaps choose certain people in your life to be your guardian, to steward that final days for you.

to make sure they’re protecting you if you are not in a position to protect yourself and make your wishes known. And I think that’s the hard part. Like there are so many parts to this experience that are difficult because you just don’t understand. Like you don’t know. You know, it’s just like you find out about your person on Facebook. You have no idea at what time and then what do you do going forward? So again, you’ll have this experience of wanting to do right by them and wanting to protect what little you can protect while you can.

So help your people do that for you. And it’s not just for you, it’s for them as well, their peace of mind.

Chardét Ryel (53:04)
I mean, that’s probably something that I’ve never really heard someone speak about before. And it’s something that you can actively do now too, to think about like one who is the person or the people who can really support you, represent you in that experience. It’s not always who you think it would be, right? Like sometimes the person who’s legally most supposed to do it is not always necessarily the best person. So I think there’s.

having that conversation beforehand, but then also, like you said, is you revealing this to them when they can listen really best way to do it. I just really admire you for going through this and sharing it. Not just here, but I’ve seen you share it. I’ve seen you like do things like create a list of the questions that people ask you if you’re an organ donor or the person who’s passing. And that’s something like just you.

putting that out there and sharing that while you’re experiencing it is just really incredible.

Jule Kim (54:03)
I think at the back of my mind I kept having this feeling it’s almost like I was just reeling from the experience. It’s not just one shock, it’s like shock after shock after shock. And looking back over how we went through it, I was just like, no family, no friend, no person should have to go through it like this. But unfortunately, I think that is the reality. think.

Probably most people go through it like this. It’s a little bit different if you’re a child because then no one expects you to be in the position of making decisions, which can be good or bad. I would say if you have children involved and you can speak to this, I would say at least get their input, This is something that I’ve been wanting to say actually for a long time. I think I needed a break from talking about this on social media, but this is a good time to bring it up and not in avoidance of grief. But if we’re talking about

What can you do now to help yourself when the time comes? One of the things that I did was frantically searching through my messages from my brother because I was looking for reminders that he loved me. And with me and my brother, we didn’t hold back. But in the vein of what can you do now? Send videos of yourself telling your people that you love them and what it is that you appreciate about them and have people do that for you as well. At least send a voice note.

If you have some mental block against video, then send a voice note. You see it in the movies or the TV shows where sometimes somebody is replaying old home movies. And I totally understand why now. Sometimes you just want those reminders of what it was that their voice sounded like or what it was that they looked like. And you have photos every chance you get. Take the freaking picture. Stop being

the weirdo with like, I don’t like my picture being taken. Take the photo together. Otherwise you will end up in the position that I was in where I didn’t have any photos.

You don’t want to be scrolling back through 15 years of photos looking for like the three photos you ever took with that person. Don’t do that to yourself.

Chardét Ryel (56:19)
Probably the most powerful thing you could say, especially just the voice note. When I think back to the person that I lost that was really close to me, none of this stuff existed, technology wise. All the photos we had were flooded. So I don’t have anything of this person. And that’s still very hard years later. So I understand what that feels like completely, how hard that is.

to not be able to hear the voice in particular. And also because things like the scent goes away after a certain amount of time, I remember that. But I think that’s the most amazing thing you can say. And there’s so many things now too, like even just with tech that has come along to help you do this, like it’s incredible now, the things that people have created so that you can have those connections, I think is amazing. And I know that you didn’t have this, so it means a lot for you to share it. Thank you.

Jule Kim (57:17)
Thank you.

Chardét Ryel (57:18)
Thank

you for being here and holding this space with us. And if you found that it really stuck with you, any part of this, and you feel that maybe these words could help someone who is experiencing loss or even just maybe it’s inspired you for how to help someone be there for them as they go through it, please share. This is one where Joel and I had this conversation completely to be able to help you.

and really just to move through this experience. I’ll see you in the next one.