Topics: Should I have Kids, Choosing Childfree, Anxiety Motherhood, Anxiety Marriage

 

 

Should I have kids? Or get married? What is right for ME?…

Untangling what you want from what society tells you to choose.

 

“Should I have kids?” isn’t just a decision—it’s a full-body tug-of-war between who you are and who the world expects you to be. And if you’ve ever felt the quiet weight of anxiety around motherhood or what your life should look like by now… this episode is for you.

You’ll hear from Catriona Innes, writer, author and Commissions Director at Cosmopolitan UK, known for telling the stories women live but rarely say out loud.

You’ll get language for feelings you’ve never quite been able to express, especially if you’re exploring being childfree by choice, unsure, or stuck between two paths.

You’ll hear how Catriona untangled society’s voice from her own—and the surprising turn her journey took when she finally listened inward.

 

 

TIMESTAMPS

(03:05) Childfree by Choice vs. Society’s Expectations
(04:55) Should I Have Kids? Milestone Pressure Story
(07:48) Tradwife Trend & Anxiety Around Motherhood
(10:02) Anxiety Motherhood: Grief When Choosing Childfree
(18:21) Should I Have Kids? Knowing Your True Desire

 

Listen in and discover:

• UNLEARNING THE SCRIPT: How to spot the messaging you inherited—vs. the desires that are truly yours.

 

• REWRITING WHAT WOMANHOOD MEANS: A grounded way to explore motherhood, marriage, or opting out… without shame.

 

• CHOOSING FROM PURPOSE, NOT FEAR: How to navigate indecision with honesty, compassion, and practical tools (including what she learned from a motherhood mentor).
  

 

And don’t worry—this conversation is completely accessible whether you’re childfree, undecided, longing, grieving, or simply questioning.

 

 

ABOUT CATRIONA INNES
Catriona is the Commissioning Director at Cosmopolitan UK. She’s also an incredible writer, author and storyteller.

Instagram:@catreenaah
Substack: https://catrionainnes.substack.com/
Cosmopolitan: https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/author/222952/catriona-innes/

 

LISTEN TO NEXT
Episode: “I thought I missed my chance.” (ep #314)

 

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CONNECT
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MORE ON THIS PODCAST FOR WOMEN EPISODE

 

“Do you want it, or have you been told that you want it? And those two things are very different.” — Catriona Innes

 

• Choosing what you want vs. what you’re told
• The weight of expectation on women’s lives.
• Catriona’s journey to childfree.
• Fulfillment comes from the life you create.

 

Should I have kids?
Should I want marriage?
Should I be further along by now?

These questions land hard because they’re not just decisions—they’re mirrors. They reflect who you are, who you’re becoming, and who the world told you to be before you even had a chance to choose. And if you’ve ever found yourself caught between desire and expectation, you’re not alone. This is the tension so many women carry quietly: the magnetic pull between freedom and responsibility, independence and belonging, possibility and pressure.

The truth is, deciding whether motherhood is for you isn’t about babies, timelines, or milestones. It’s about identity. It’s about the life you imagine when no one else is looking. And when you strip away the noise, the rules, the “shoulds,” the question at the center becomes: What do I actually want?

This is where Catriona Innes—Commissions Director at Cosmopolitan UK, storyteller, and journalist—brings her sharp honesty and her deeply human perspective. Her work dives straight into the stories women live but rarely say out loud. And in our conversation, she gives words to the thoughts so many of us have carried alone.

 

What Expectations Did You Inherit Without Realizing It?

From the time we’re young, there’s a script handed to us—quietly, steadily, wrapped in compliments, warnings, and cultural patterns. It tells us when to settle down, when to want children, how to behave, and who we should aim to be in the world. You might not even notice you’ve been following it until you hit a wall of discomfort you can’t explain.

Catriona captures this perfectly when she says:
“Do you want it, or have you been told that you want it? And those two things are very different.”

Most of us grow up believing certain milestones will unlock meaning—marriage, motherhood, stability, responsibility. And for many, those choices do bring joy. But when the pressure to choose comes before the desire to choose, anxiety creeps in. This is where anxiety motherhood often roots itself—not in the child, but in the expectation.

Understanding which wants are yours and which were handed to you is the first step toward a life that feels like your own.

 

When You Realize You’ve Been Following a Script

There’s a moment in every woman’s life where the expectations clash loudly with her reality. It can happen at 25 or 45; it doesn’t matter. What matters is that something inside you whispers: This doesn’t feel like my choice.

Catriona shared a moment from her own marriage journey that hits deep:
“I suddenly realized I’d been doggedly pursuing something because I thought it would give me value.”

This is the story of so many women—chasing a milestone because we think it will create worth, safety, belonging, or identity. And when the milestone arrives and doesn’t deliver those things, it can feel destabilizing. That feeling isn’t failure. It’s awareness. It’s the beginning of reclaiming your voice.

If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re living a life you truly chose or one that was chosen for you, this conversation gives you permission to pause, breathe, and question.

 

Re-Centering Your Life Around What Actually Matters to You

Many of us swung from one expectation to another—first centering men, then centering work, then centering accomplishment. It’s easy to confuse ambition with fulfillment and achievement with identity. But Catriona said something that may shift your whole perspective:
“We started with centering men, then we moved to centering work—we just replaced one with the other.”

This is the heart of the journey: learning to center yourself.

Not the version of you others expect.
Not the one optimized for approval or security.
The you who wants laughter, connection, meaning, freedom, depth, love, adventure—whatever combination feels honest.

Breaking out of the script doesn’t always feel bold or clean. Sometimes it feels messy, raw, or uncertain. But that’s where possibility lives.

 

Choosing to Be Childfree by Choice—And Owning That Path

For women who don’t want children—or aren’t sure—there’s a different layer of tension. If you’re exploring what it means to be childfree by choice, you’ve likely felt the weight of assumptions, projections, or concern disguised as advice. Even when you feel aligned with your decision, there are moments of longing, comparison, or curiosity that can surface.

Catriona acknowledged the nuance beautifully:
“I don’t think it can be underestimated, the sacrifice of something very beautiful when you decide to be childfree.”

Being childfree by choice doesn’t mean a lack of emotion. It doesn’t erase the beauty of what motherhood can be. It simply means choosing the life that feels most aligned with your individuality, your energy, and your purpose.

Many women experience anxiety motherhood not because they’re unsure about having children but because they worry they’ll regret not having them. Others worry about losing themselves if they do have children. Both experiences are real. Neither is wrong.

If you’re childfree by choice or simply questioning, this conversation validates the complexity in a way that feels grounding and compassionate.

 

When Both Paths Hold Grief and Longing

Motherhood isn’t a guarantee of fulfillment, and choosing not to have children isn’t a guarantee of regret. Both paths come with beauty and loss. Both invite identity shifts and emotional complexity.

One mother told Catriona she sometimes feels a grief for the vacations she can’t take, the spontaneity she lost, or the parts of herself she misses. And childfree women often grieve the imagined moments they won’t experience.

This duality matters because it removes the idea that longing equals wrongness.

A feeling is not a verdict.
A moment of curiosity is not a sign.
A wave of sadness doesn’t mean you should rewrite your life.

You can long for a life you didn’t choose and still be completely aligned with the life you have.

 

How to Ask Yourself the Real Questions

Deciding whether to have children is not a logic puzzle or a checklist. It’s a process of listening inward, getting honest about your energy, your values, your joy, and your capacity.

Here are gentle but powerful questions inspired by the episode:

• What part of motherhood or being childfree feels like desire, and what part feels like pressure?
• Who am I trying to please with this decision?
• What does a fulfilling life look like if I remove all expectations?
• Where do I feel expansion—and where do I feel contraction?
• If no one commented on my choice, what would I choose?

These questions don’t produce instant clarity. They create space for clarity to emerge.

 

You Are Allowed to Choose the Life That Fits You

No one can answer “Should I have kids?” for you. Not family, not friends, not partners, not timelines. You get to choose the life you want—one that feels aligned in your body, your heart, and your purpose.

You get to take your time.
You get to change your mind.
You get to ask questions without apologizing.
You get to rewrite the script.

The pressure to decide doesn’t define you. The courage to ask what you truly want does.

Whether you’re questioning motherhood, exploring being childfree by choice, or sitting somewhere in between, this conversation offers grounding, compassion, and the kind of honesty that helps you breathe again. There’s no one right path—only the one that feels like yours.

If you’re navigating expectation, identity, or that tender space of indecision, you will want to hear the full conversation with Catriona. Her stories and insights offer something no checklist ever could: perspective, permission, and the reminder that you’re not alone in this.

 

 

FAQ

1. How do I know if I should have kids or not?

You’ll get more clarity by separating what feels like personal desire versus what feels like pressure from family, culture, timelines, or milestones. The answer lives in how your body and energy respond—not what you “should” want.

2. What does it mean to be childfree by choice?

Being childfree by choice means intentionally choosing a life without parenting because it aligns with your joy, lifestyle, purpose, and identity—not because of fear or avoidance.

3. Why do I feel anxiety about motherhood even if I love kids?

Anxiety motherhood often comes from fears around identity loss, lifestyle changes, responsibility, or expectations—not from your ability to be nurturing or loving.

4. How can I tell if being childfree is right for me?

Ask yourself how you feel imagining life with kids versus without them. If one version feels like expansion and the other feels like contraction, that’s valuable insight into whether childfree for me is the path.

5. Is it normal to be unsure about having children?

Yes—many women feel unsure at some point, even those who eventually become parents. Doubt is a sign you’re being thoughtful, not a sign that something is wrong.

6. Will I regret being childfree later in life?

Regret is complex. Some childfree people experience moments of longing, just as many parents feel longing for past freedom. Neither path guarantees regret; both paths include trade-offs.

7. Does societal pressure impact women’s decision to have kids?

Absolutely. Messages about timelines, “biological clocks,” and who you should become can heavily influence the Should I have kids? question more than actual desire.

8. Can I be childfree and still live a meaningful life?

Completely. Meaning comes from alignment, purpose, relationships, creativity, contribution, and inner fulfillment—not just parenting.

9. How do I talk to my partner about not wanting kids?

Use honest, grounded language. Explain what feels true for you, what you’ve been exploring internally, and what you envision for your life—rather than framing it as a final verdict.

10. What if my partner wants kids and I don’t?

It’s one of the biggest relationship crossroads. The goal is deep, continuous communication to understand what each person truly wants and whether your futures can coexist or need to evolve separately.

 

 

Full Transcript with Catriona Innes

Chardét Ryel (00:00)
How do you decide if motherhood is for you? If marriage is for you? If all the things that you’ve been told as a woman to want are for you or not? I think this is a huge dilemma that we all face from teenagers and beyond. And especially if you’re a woman who’s going into her late 20s, 30s, 40s, this is difficult.

And I want to bring a conversation to you that is very real and helps you ask the questions to decide, is this for me? I’m speaking with the very magnetic and charismatic and funny Catriona, who is the commissions director at Cosmopolitan UK. She’s a journalist or writer. My hope is that you listen and it inspires you to ask those questions for you.

Not for anyone else, not for your parents, not for your partner, not for society, but for you. I’ll see you inside.

Get ready to feel good naked. I’m your host, Sade, and if you’re here right now, it means that you are ready to strip away all the crap, all the rules holding you back from feeling good in your body, in your mind, and in your life. Let’s get into it.

Catriona Innes (01:23)
At Cosmo and all of my features writing, it’s the things that issues the impact to women, but also the things that I’m nosy about. I also really like to kind of go undercover or immerse myself into people’s lives. So I’ve been undercover with police officers catching the people who commit sexual assault on tube trains. I’ve sat in domestic abuse workshops, but then I’ve also worked as a playboy bunny.

Chardét Ryel (01:48)
This is the thing that really drew us to what you do is I feel like you share stories, whether through its Cosmo or somewhere else that need to be seen and heard but often aren’t. Like whether it is about the porn industry, whether it is about the abuse on the tube or whether it is about grief, right? It’s the stuff that people often don’t touch or won’t say.

Catriona Innes (02:13)
Yeah, that is definitely what I’m drawn to. And I particularly like to go about it where I’m focusing on real people’s stories and real people’s experiences above all else and making sure that I’m breaking through stigma or what people might expect or kind of the common conversation, the common messaging out there and just placing it in the hands. Meet the people doing really interesting things to help with our issues and problems.

Chardét Ryel (02:42)
I find it really fascinating, especially the stories that touch on women and the stigmas that can be related to that. And I know you’ve done so many stories, personal undercover around this. What do you think are the biggest areas where even today, even today as we’re recording in 2025, there’s still stigma for women?

Catriona Innes (03:05)
I would say it’s the expectation to be a certain type of woman. So, ⁓ I know I’ve wrote a lot and explored my own kind of ideas to do with deciding that I wanted to be child free and that plays into this a lot, but it’s also, even when I was doing the porn research, it was this idea of women still feel not able to embrace their full sexuality. They still feel that they

should be a certain way. Or I once spent time with these women that were, couple of them labeled themselves the sluts of TikTok. And they were these kind of free women really talking very openly about their sex life on TikTok. And I just found them to be so inspiring because my generation of women, so I’m 40 now, we were raised to think that the best way to be good in bed was to center a man’s experience.

the messaging that we have placed on us and how that results in shame and stigma and how it limits sometimes the way that we live our lives while also, course, discussing the idea that there’s messaging, of course, out there to get married, to have children by a certain age, be a certain person by a certain age, have a career by a certain age. Also, just because you do those things, that also doesn’t mean that you’re just doing them because you’ve been told to do them. It’s just about

figuring out what makes you personally happy. And I think that’s a really, really tough thing to unpick.

Chardét Ryel (04:29)
Milestone Chakra one is the one that sticks with me when you say that, yeah, because it could be that you choose to get married and have kids because you choose to do that. And it’s not, you’re not bringing women’s rights down because you choose to do it. But also, like if you’re doing it only because, my God, I’m 35 and I need to be doing this and who’s going to take care of me if I don’t? Like that’s a totally different perspective, right?

Catriona Innes (04:55)
I speak about this quite a lot. I I was, when I was 30, I’d been in my relationship for 10 years. We’d been together since we were 19 and everyone around me was getting married and I would just go to weddings and I would get white wine drunk, demand a proposal. And I was quite fixated on it. And then I woke up on my honeymoon and I was like, Oh my God, why am I married? And it was nothing to do with the man that beside me. I suddenly realized I’d been doggedly pursuing something.

because I thought that it would give me value. That’s against the way I’ve been raised. My mom was an incredible feminist. She was like a real fourth wave feminist writer. She would be really upset. She really hammered interest. I can remember when we were younger, the Everything I Do, I Do It For You song by Bryan Adams was top. And my mom was just like, no, girls, that is not what you want. And this man is a liar. You want to do things for yourself. You want to things to be independent.

And then there I was suddenly feeling pressure because everyone else around me was doing something that I had to do it. But do you want it or have you been told that you want it? And those two things are very different. And it’s hard. It’s really, really hard. I don’t think turning 30 is a fun age at all. Whereas I do think turning 40 is a fun age.

Chardét Ryel (06:14)
I’m about to turn it, so I’m excited about that.

Catriona Innes (06:17)
It’s really fun.

Chardét Ryel (06:20)
Your mom was a pioneer though to be like saying that honestly to be able to say that to you guys then because my mom was a single mom so she kind of had to be a bit feminist, right? Because she’s fighting for different rights, but she still, this stuck with me when you were saying this, she’s still always pushed. Oh, when I have a husband, there’d still be that messaging of you will be safe and secure once you have a man. Even though she was…

working for the entire household income, it didn’t matter.

Catriona Innes (06:52)
I think we do, and we’re even seeing that now with the idea of the kind of trad wife, where I see it with like on TikTok, these ideas of like, you want a high value husband or things like make sure that he’s the one paying, make sure, and you find your value. But a lot of that, and I agree with finding your value in relationships, absolutely. But that shouldn’t necessarily be a monetary value. And the idea of a man bringing you security through his paycheck.

is worrying that this messaging is continuing in new forms across new platforms.

Chardét Ryel (07:24)
I can see a little bit with the younger generation that are falling into the tradwives trend and maybe circling it. This idea of like, I’m rebelling against all these women who were super feminist and want to go and be high powered, whatever. I’m going to do the opposite and do this, but it’s not with a sense of do you really want it, which is your point ⁓ here.

Catriona Innes (07:48)
I get it, it is exhausting. we, suddenly grew up kind of under the girl bossing and the like, all of that, that pressure and it is exhausting. But again, there’s a way for us to examine the pressure that we felt to have it all without rewinding time, without thinking, okay, well, it was better before. It’s a way of thinking, well, maybe we decenter men and we decenter work. We figure out different things that will make us.

I mean, I’m someone whose my work makes me incredibly happy, but I know that’s not the case for others.

Chardét Ryel (08:22)
The idea that you just said stuck with me, this idea of de-center men, de-center work, because it does feel like we started with centering men and then we moved to centering work. we’ve just replaced one with the other instead of actually internally, you know, the validation you really need is internal, not…

Catriona Innes (08:42)
And like, definitely went through a time where I kind of was like, I was examining my own grief because I lost my mom when I was 19. And then I threw myself into making it as a journalist, getting a book out, making it a magazine. So was my big, big thing. And then I got here and then drug, I felt suddenly lost. Like it doesn’t feel like how I’d been told it feels like. What does that look like for me? then, and I did a lot, I went through this real

feeling of being lost. So what I did was I decided just to focus on the things that I find fun. And it would be like, is this work project fun? Is this friendship fun? Is it rewarding? Am I spending my life traveling, doing the things that fulfill me? And I tried to kind of center myself back into fun and fulfillment. And particularly as well, I tried to look into things that would bring me purpose.

that we’re not having children and we’re not work related. So I started to volunteer for a homeless charity. I started to weight lift. That was just like a little thing. Things that gave me that kind of feeling, but weren’t work or yeah, motherhood.

Chardét Ryel (09:54)
Because motherhood is another one that, I mean, this is super controversial to say, but that we can also center everything on.

Catriona Innes (10:02)
yeah, absolutely. Again, this might sound my diamond shoes are too tight. I suddenly found that I didn’t have, I had so much time and the path I thought that I would go on seemed simpler almost, which was having children that would help decide where I would live. It would be the good schools. would kind of, I’d have something to focus my energy into and that is a lovely, beautiful thing. And I have so many friends who are mothers who do that. But because it wasn’t for me, I then felt

Like, my God, I have to carve out a good path for myself. What does that path look like? And again, I felt lost because the other path seemed to be partying, holidays. Because I could do what I want, I did all I want and I needed again to bring back focus. So that was kind of another journey that I went on.

Chardét Ryel (10:52)
Part of the journey, did you ever come across anyone who you saw either in your immediate friends or even just in passing or someone you talked to where you thought, this is what it could be like without the traditional path? Is there anything that you remember? It could be in a travel or it could be a conversation where it just made you think, okay, it could be different this way. see someone, I…

I see someone doing what I would like to do but I didn’t even realize that’s how I’d like to do it.

Catriona Innes (11:22)
I do remember having conversations with my friend Alice Snape, who she’s also another writer. And I spoke to her a lot about just this feeling of indecision, because I just really did not know for a really, really long time. And I felt silly about that. I felt like I should know. I felt that there was kind of, I remember once sitting at this dinner and it was for a launch of a child free, a book all about being child free.

And everyone else at the table seemed very confident in being child free. And then I put my hand up and was like, I just don’t know. I just don’t know. And everyone at the table kind of looked at me a bit like, maybe should know. And I felt like, God, how stupid am I that I don’t know the answer to this big question? And then Alice felt the same and she said, look, like you need to write about this. So I wrote this feature for Cosmo and I found this woman who was a motherhood mentor.

called Ann Davidman. And it was kind of her role to kind of help women like me. And it really put into perspective how many other women there are like me, and that included also mothers. So that was also really a nice thing for me was to speak to other mothers after the piece came out, who had said, I’m not sure, I wasn’t sure either. And then I went down this path and there’s still times when I question.

my decision, I’ll see a woman having a martini alone, or I want to be able to book a holiday that’s not during the school children, or I’ve had to abandon parts of my career, or I’ve had to abandon parts of things that I felt made me me to be a mother. And I question that sometimes, but that does not mean I question my decision to have children. And then from those conversations, that really helped me kind of think, nothing is kind of a hundred percent sure.

I think this is maybe a myth that we’re taught that you feel 100 % sure. And you can have moments of questioning, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that our moments of regret, that doesn’t mean you’ve made the wrong choice. So I think it was maybe seeing all of these different women, all these different women and the different decisions that they’d made really helped me think what would my life look like.

Chardét Ryel (13:39)
Do you feel like after having done that you got the answer that you wanted or do you still feel like some days you’re going back and forth?

Catriona Innes (13:50)
I mean, I definitely feel like I’ve got the answer now. did. remember during the interview, Anne Davidman said to me, she said, you know, you’re not going to figure out this answer by doing this feature. And I was like, damn you. That’s how I figure things out. And then I found the future and I still wasn’t sure. was like, oh, Anne Davidman was right. He probably took it. I mean, this is from age 35 to 40, I would say. And now.

I know that there’s times like this, I’ve spent a lot of time kind of unpicking when I feel moments of longing, where they come from and what those moments of longing perhaps mean and how I can fill them. like, I’ve often found that I feel real moments of longing when I’ve had a really fun summer, see, I’ve been to loads of festivals, I’ve done a lot of things and then suddenly I’m like, hold on, am I missing something?

And then I examine that and I think that’s because you’re living your life out of the status quo of what you’re told to be and those feelings, they are not your own. But then there’s also other things where like I wrote about this recently, I was clearing out, helping my dad clear out the house and I had my old childhood doll’s house there. And I always thought I would give that to my own daughter. I knew I had to do something with it.

And I was struggling to throw that away or give it away to charity. And then I thought, you know what, you can still decorate this and you can give it to your friend’s daughter. So now I’m going to decorate the doll’s house still and do exactly what I wanted and fulfill that that way. ⁓ Or like at Easter, I always, I always feel quite lonely Easter because of a family orientated holiday. But now I do parties for people in London who don’t have somewhere to go on Easter or things. So it’s kind of.

Examining, guess, where the longing comes from and seeing how I can meet that longing in another way.

Chardét Ryel (15:51)
You almost have to be more proactive, don’t you? Because if you’re taking care of a child or multiple children, you don’t have the time or really the headspace to be able to think about this, do you? Because it’s like, your activity is this, you’re taking care of these kids. But when you don’t have that, there’s so much time and headspace that can open up. And I wonder too, like, it sounds like you were very close to your mom. She seems like she was an amazing woman.

And there’s that part too of right like, ⁓ I could be like how my mom was to me to someone else and then giving that up. It’s not easy.

Catriona Innes (16:30)
Absolutely. I think that, I mean, in some ways losing my mom early, that was, it was hard because my mom wasn’t, she was, she was someone who loved to throw big parties. So Halloween, we do these things, like we’d, she’d tell these stories and we’d put our hands in jelly and it’d be guts. So fun. And I thought, oh, I’ll do stuff like that. And so it was letting go of those kind of little things. But then at the same time, losing my mom early and us being so close, it kind of did teach me a kind of thing to do with this idea of now. So like,

and who we are now, we’re kind of always taught, well, who look after you when you’re old? What’s your life going to look like when you’re 60, et cetera? And my mom died, I can’t actually remember how old, but it was 54. It was kind of mid-50s and when I was 19. So she didn’t get adult grown-up children. She didn’t get those experiences that I crave that my friends get where they go for pasta with their moms. And look, I know people’s relationships with their mothers are difficult, but because of that, that

also helped kind of reframe this idea of having children so that I can have people around me with the 60th birthday cake and all the kids around me and grandkids and things. It reminded me that that’s not given and I should really focus on what is making me happy now.

Chardét Ryel (17:50)
Yeah, I think when you lose people early, it really changes your perspective on how you see relationships and how you, what you accept that people say about how things have to be for sure. Nothing’s guaranteed you don’t know, but it is for what you said. I think it is for the idea of figuring out is it what you want.

Or is it what you’re being told that you want? And it’s much easier if you know you want it, easier if you know I really don’t want it.

Catriona Innes (18:21)
Yeah,

there’s women that have known since they were little not to be child free. find that like such a fast and like, wow. When I now have decided, I look back on my childhood and I think, I think I did always know. I think something deep down in me did always know, but societal messaging kind of went on top of that. I can remember playing with dolls and saying, well, I’m not going to be pregnant.

It was almost like in my head, knew I didn’t want to carry a baby, but I knew I’d have to be a mother somehow. So that’s how I would adopt. And I find that one very interesting though. And I look back and I’m like, yeah, like maybe little me did know. Or like even when I thought about the reasons why I would say I wanted a child were I wanted to

I’m really excited for being pregnant because I will get to order a Chinese takeaway for two.

Chardét Ryel (19:23)
It’s a high price to pay for your Chinese takeaway.

Catriona Innes (19:28)
could just sort of try to take away from doing that. It was like things like, oh, like I’d be like, oh, I’ll have free foot rubs on tap. Like I could just ask for a foot rub. Do you know what mean? Like there’s these ridiculous ideas to do with pregnancy that weren’t, I mean, ultimately it should have been like, I’m excited to raise a child because I’m excited to, for the process of motherhood that enriching things. But there’s this kind of famous Sex and the City episode where Carrie says,

I wanted to become a writer. became a writer. If I want this pair of shoes, I go after this pair of shoes. If I, if I thought I wanted a baby, would I have not gone after that baby? And that really related to me because I am someone that’s quite a go getter in terms of things that I want. And then I kind of, was like, well, I made it to Cosmo, which is always my dream. Those were my focuses. Why was this one not my focus? Which is kind of another thing that I examined in myself.

It’s hard when it comes to this topic because I don’t, I’m always putting myself in kind of other people’s shoes and kind of adding caveats and caveats. mean, obviously this is my, this is my experience and there may be lots of women who realized a lot later after achieving all those things, actually the motherhood is the next thing that they want. But for me, that helped.

Chardét Ryel (20:46)
When you were saying just now about how if I wanted it, I’d go for it. I would have gone for it because you did like you achieved what you wanted professionally. You achieved what you wanted in different ways in your life. And so I imagine too, the assignments that you chose to do, like you went for them. But I think a hard part, I’m curious to see for you because you’ve been with your partner since you were 19, correct? This is a hard part too, that I’m curious for your opinion on is.

One of the biggest reasons I see why people decide to be childless is, and maybe because they choose really, they want it, but it’s also because they haven’t found someone who they think would be a good partner, right? And then you find someone who’s a good partner. You’ve been together a long time. You love each other. It’s harder to, that big resistance point is not there.

Catriona Innes (21:40)
Yeah. And I went through that because I remember a friend of mine, really, she was really, really wanted children and she couldn’t find, she was single, she was dating. She was really going through it and was very, very stressed. And then I felt, and this was around the exact same time that I was deciding whether I wanted to have children or not. Hannah’s like, ⁓ I’m wasting this perfectly good sperm. Like, she not just have his? And the thing is also like,

He is much, much, much, much better with children than I am. He’s fantastic with children. We’ve had so many conversations about this. It’s not what he wants. I had to kind of think beyond him as well. So I had to think, okay, sperm actually does expire. So there is a little bit of a biological clock on men, but it’s less of a biological clock on men. So I had to think, okay, well, we could split. Like it’s not very romantic, but that is a reality.

And if in 10 years time, he has an affair with his receptionist, does the cliched thing, and has a baby with her, how will I feel about my decision? And I had to almost be like, make it as if I was a single woman, as if he was not in the equation at all, because we don’t know how life is going to turn out.

Chardét Ryel (23:02)
It’s extremely helpful actually to think about it that way because you really don’t know what will happen to your partner if you split, if they pass, like you don’t know. Maybe they have an emotional breakdown and they’re not fit to help you. You have to think about it like, yeah, you could have this amazing partner, but would you be prepared to do it alone, you know?

Having seen someone do it alone, I mean, it’s a lot. It’s almost too, I wonder if, it’s funny how you were saying like, it is a little bit easier for men to not be 100 % in, right? Because they can, they shouldn’t, but they can. mean, we shoulder off the responsibility to you, especially because biologically, you’re the one who’s gonna have the physical impact of it. I don’t know, I often think I would be a dad. I think I would be a dad.

Catriona Innes (23:53)
And so the thing isn’t it, like, and I guess actually that is one of the things that Anne Davidman, the mother had mentored kind of makes you analyze is she makes you analyze if the circumstances that you exist in were different, how would you feel? What sacrifices are you willing to make? What things would you change? And so she kind of gave an example of like someone’s kind of say a lot of people are like, well, I would want a child, but like financially I can’t afford one or financially.

this is the sort of parent I’d like to be and that’s out of my reach. And then she would say, well, could you, instead of having two children, have one child, for example, or is there ways you can do, or are you willing to accept that because you can’t parent the way that you would want to parent because of whatever reasons, you take that off the table, or are you willing to make sacrifices to what you view as good parenting or good life? And I found that to be very interesting.

Like, we just don’t know. I kept thinking, like, if I was a multimillionaire and I could afford to have career and nannies that would help me get sleep at night and et cetera, et cetera, would I make a different decision?

Chardét Ryel (25:03)
Because well, even if you have them, if you want that connection with your child, you can have support, but ultimately you want your kid to come to you, right? For you to be the person or your partner. And that means that you can have all the help in the world, but it ultimately still comes down to you if that’s the relationship you want. Yeah. I saw that a lot. Like I used to be a personal trainer when I first started my career in very wealthy homes. I saw both.

I saw some families where both parents, not just the mom, were extremely disassociated. I ended up actually watching two kids for a PT session. They were seven and eight. And as the parents went off to go to a social event, that was the kind of distance that was there. They brought in a PT as a babysitter.

And then I saw the other side too of a mom who was so dedicated to her kids and really knew everything, asking them questions about school, etc. Even though she had a chef, she had someone cleaning her house. But I saw that in the case of that really strong relationship, those kids did not go to the nanny and they didn’t go to like the help they went to her.

Catriona Innes (26:15)
I don’t really like to feel tied down or hemmed in at all. don’t, like, I know lots of people who have pets, I’ve got cats, but ⁓ that, even the cat feels sometimes too much of a tie. I feel kind of restricted by my cat, which though makes me think, yeah, I’d be too restricted by a child.

Chardét Ryel (26:36)
Yeah, I feel restricted by my plants.

Catriona Innes (26:40)
Yeah exactly, yeah like keeping the fucking eyes wide.

Chardét Ryel (26:46)
Yeah,

no, but I do see both sides. really do because both my sisters each have three kids. I’ve got six nieces and nephews, a long time around kids of all ages. And I’ve seen like, you see the beautiful moments. I see the incredible times that they have. I see it. I totally see both sides. And I think that’s what makes it so hard.

Catriona Innes (27:06)
That is the thing. I guess I kind of wrote, or even when I was talking about like kind of the doll, the doll’s house and the kind of the Easter’s and things, is ultimately like, I wrote about this today. I don’t think it can be underestimated the sacrifice that you’re making and the sacrifice of something very, very beautiful if you decide this. And of course that feels much, much deeper if you’re a child free, not by choice.

That’s obviously a much, much deeper grief, but I do still think, and this is I tried to explore, that there is an element of grief there because you are letting go of something that you always thought that you would have. And I have definitely had times where I’ve kind of thought that. And I think in some ways it helps me to not gloss over that, to not pretend to myself that, it’s all hunky dory. I can go on loads of holidays. I’ve got all this freedom.

Sometimes it’s good for me to say, know what, I have missed out on that and that is a beautiful experience. And I am so envious of the mothers in my life that get to experience that. But just because I feel that envy and just because I feel that regret and just because I can acknowledge that that’s something I’m missing out on, that doesn’t mean that it would bring me enough to make the decision to have a child. So I think that is an important part of it.

acknowledge rather than just kind of being like, ⁓ for peace, like, la la la.

Chardét Ryel (28:32)
It’s not a sign that you chose wrong just because you feel a little bit of grief on either side of what you’re missing like the mother you said with the vacation, right?

Catriona Innes (28:42)
And that’s like, I think I know sometimes like friends of mine, her mothers will say like, like I’m so jealous of the free time. Even just the fact that I can go to the gym whenever I want. Something as small as that. And they have to kind of factor those decisions in a lot more. And then they’ll be like, yeah, I’m missing a piece of myself or I feel like there’s parts of myself that are missing. But of course that doesn’t mean that they’re saying that they regret or don’t love their children. ⁓

what I’m saying, it doesn’t mean that I don’t, I should have changed my, I’m changing my mind.

Chardét Ryel (29:17)
Perhaps the most introspective thing just to leave listeners with is this idea of if you feel those moments either way, it’s completely natural. It doesn’t mean you have to rethink your whole choice.

Catriona Innes (29:31)
I think I always say it’s like judging your happiness, same relationships, anything in percentages. So 80 % of my life, I’m so happy. And that’s a great thing. If that dipped below 50%, it would be thinking about what is it’s dipping below 50%, but never thinking, God, I’m not a hundred percent happy with my decision. That’s fine. I don’t think anyone is a hundred percent happy all the time with anything.

Chardét Ryel (30:00)
I really feel that that feels a lot more attainable, yeah, because I think most of us are not 100 % every single day with every single thing. yeah, you get to a point where, if it’s below a certain percentage, sure, then investigate where’s the source here. But if it’s mostly on the up, then you’ve made decisions that align with you, even if they don’t reflect what everyone else you know is doing. I want to leave the listeners with a space to connect with you.

So where would be best? I definitely want to refer your sub stack of course, but anything else you want to mention here too.

Catriona Innes (30:36)
Yeah, so think probably my sub stack’s the best place. ⁓ And then I’m quite active on Instagram. So, and then on Cosmo, all of my articles are all in one place under my author bio. So you can read all from when I was a Playboy bunny or an undercover cop and things on there too.

Chardét Ryel (30:53)
I love it. Everything will be in the show notes. And thank you so much for being here and having the conversation and really like going deep with it too. I think we said some stuff I wasn’t waiting for and I’m so glad we did.

Catriona Innes (31:06)
Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much.

Chardét Ryel (31:08)
And thank you so much for listening. If you have a person in your life who you know is struggling with this question of motherhood, with social expectations, with marriage, if they’re in that position or maybe they’re forced to be in that position in the case of, for example, someone who really wanted kids and they just can’t have them, please share this episode. You can see, like Catriona said, it helps.

so much when you just see other people that have a story or situation like yours so you don’t feel alone. So send this to them. It could really give them a sense of feeling a little bit in community and maybe finding their answers. Sending you lots of energy, lots of love, and I will see you in the next one.